Episode 24 – Ashley Cox on Songwriting and the Stories Behind the Songs

Below is a transcription of the episode:

There is so much music out there, and so many people with different preferences.

But have you ever wondered why it is that you like some music and not others?

Have you ever pondered the possibility that your unique energetic blueprint might have some influence over that big why?

And how are these artists creating their music and lyrics?

Is there some secret formula that anyone can follow?

Or is there more of a soul-led endeavor at play?

On the Music By Design Podcast, we are doing the research and finding out through deep interviews with both lovers and creators of music to find out exactly why it is that we love the music that we do and how the way it’s created can impact who’s going to like our music.

So come dive in with us.

Start cleaning your house.

Go on that long road trip because these are long episodes.

Hey, hey, hey, welcome, welcome to another episode of Music By Design with me, your host, Anna Kinney from Anna With Intention.

I am sitting here with a belly stuffed after Thanksgiving dinner, recording this intro for you.

Couple things you should know right off the bat.

Number one, I appreciate you being here.

I think you’re awesome.

If this is your first time here, hey, give me a shout on Instagram or Facebook at Anna With Intention.

Let me know you’re listening.

And just a couple of things.

So right now, I’m running a Thanksgiving weekend sale on some of my PDF reports.

If you are on my email list, please check your email.

They might be in your promotions or spam folder.

Just if you don’t see them in your regular inbox, just take a look, or you can search in your email.

Anna, with intention, it should pop right up.

The first deal went out Wednesday evening on some reports that will be on sale.

Everything will be on sale through December 2nd.

So even if you’re getting access to the email late, there’s no pressure to make the decision within 12 hours.

Like you can sit on it over the weekend.

The next deal is going out today, Friday, the 29th.

So it’s going out in the evening.

If you’re getting this in your ears in, I think before like five o’clock in the evening, hop on my email list.

The link to that is in the show notes.

And you will get that email for the next sale announcement.

And there’ll be another sale being announced on Saturday via email and another one on Cyber Monday.

So if you want access to those sales, gotta get on that there email list.

Okay, that’s that as far as what the planets are doing.

Mercury is in full retrograde at this point.

It went retrograde on Tuesday.

It’s in Gate 26, which is going from the Will Center to the Spleen.

It is the Gate of Sales Integrity.

In its shadow, it’s a sleazy salesman, trickster kind of energy.

It’s high vibration.

It’s knowing how to transmute the lessons and things that you have lived through into something that sells, seals the deal.

And not just because you just want the money, but because it’s actually being of service.

It’s the idea that sales is service.

Sales is love.

That’s where this and that that energy comes from this gate.

We also have coming up, Venus is going to be conjunct Pluto in Gate 60, Line 5, 60.5 on December 7th.

And on that same day, Mars is going retrograde.

So I see that as kind of a big deal.

Also, Mercury is going to be Kazemi the sun.

We just have a lot.

We have a lot going on.

We always get Mercury.

Mercury pretty much always Kazemi is the sun every time there’s a retrograde Kazemi.

Is it going backwards and then forwards again?

So there’s a lot.

This first December 7th, the first week of December, has a lot of just really interesting movements and things going on that, you know, as always, just be happy with what’s about you.

Pay attention to your steps.

Everything is opportunity to either learn and grow or stay right where you are.

Your choice, ladies choice.

So, yeah, that’s all I have to really say about the transits for right now.

So this episode, this episode is another long one, as usual.

If you’ve been here for a while, you know what to expect.

This is such a great episode, such a great interview with my friend Ashley Cox.

She has been a long time staple of the Syracuse area community, music scene, music community.

We kind of range all over.

We don’t really get into her design until much later in the episode because she’s just such a fantastic storyteller.

And I could ask, I just ask one question and then she just goes for like an hour.

So it’s great.

I love it.

Love it.

So if you want to get a hold of her or if you’ve never heard her music, before go to Ashley Cox Music, All One Word on Instagram.

You can also visit Professional Victims on Instagram.

She also has a vintage clothing and furniture, furniture side business called Black Whisker Vintage.

And I mention a whole bunch of songs and we talk about a lot of songs from some of her different albums that she’s done with her husband in Professional Victims.

Those will all be linked.

I’m going to have direct links to all those individual songs in the show notes, but just go find her on on Spotify and listen.

It’s some fun music.

I’m sitting here with my high and mighty the title of their new album.

I got a T-shirt from her when I saw her at Moon Dogs the other week with Jess Novak.

So I’m a fan.

I’m a big fan.

This is such a cool project.

And I’m excited to let y’all know about what season two is going to look like next year.

It’s going to be similar, but just a little bit different.

I intend on putting well, I’ll tell you about it later.

So one other thing, I’ve been forgetting to mention this, but there is a Patreon for this show.

If you would like to support with two dollars a month, head on over to patreon.com/music by design.

There’s a good number of supporters over there.

I usually post the charts of the folks I’m talking to on there.

And if there are like little freebies or giveaways or things like that, I post them in there.

Haven’t had too many recently.

I mean, one here and there, but it’s just like a great place to show your appreciation.

And another really great way to show your appreciation that doesn’t literally does not cost anything is to rate and review.

I would love if you could just take a few moments to rate and review.

Spotify, it’s real easy.

You just hit five stars and hit submit.

On Apple, you can do a simple rate just like that, but it means more if you can write a few words describing how you like the podcast.

How do you like the sound quality?

How do you like the subject material?

My approach, all that sort of stuff.

It means a lot.

I read every single one of them, and I might even share it on Instagram if I see it.

So yeah, that is all.

And so on with the episode.

Welcome everyone to this week’s episode of Music By Design.

We’re just rolling right in, just rolling with the flow, go with the flow, it’s super fun.

We’ve just been chatting for a minute, and I’m already laughing.

Ready.

I have with me today, Ashley Cox.

Ashley Cox is a super prolific artist.

She is from the Syracuse area here.

I’ve been a fan since I think I got one of the Professional Victims albums in, I want to say probably 2013 or 14.

Yeah.

One of the ones with the loud, the megaphone heads.

Oh yeah, Motivational Speakers.

Motivational Speakers.

I got that album.

I think from you at Sterling.

2014.

That sounds really accurate.

Yeah.

Right around that time, I saw you guys came to Sterling Stage.

Yeah.

And I think also The Barn Party.

You guys played at the Barn Priors Barn.

The Utter Space Show.

I loved that.

That was such a good show.

So Ashley is in the band Professional Victims.

She’s also a solo artist.

She has some solo music out there.

If you look for her on Spotify, there’s a few things.

And had a brief stint last year in a disco band, Fondue.

Yeah.

We’ve just dissolved, which makes perfect timing.

I really, I just have to, one of my biggest challenges in life, no matter what the job, career, moment, task is, I just had to focus on just one thing, not three bands.

And this year, my goal is to, I mean, I’m in the studio now, recording my first solo album in a very long time.

So I want to make that my focus.

That’s awesome.

I love that.

I love that you’re like saying keywords like left and right.

Anybody listening that knows Human Design.

No, it’s great.

They’re like, okay.

But it’s all that.

It’s biggest challenge and I got to do that.

And so the timing of walking away from this band.

I love disco.

I love, who doesn’t love to dance and move and sing.

I’m disco.

It was so fun.

But yeah.

Yeah.

We’ve talked about disco on a few other episodes in the past and talked a lot about, I mean, it’s basically what pop is now.

Yeah.

It was pop of the time and pop in general is yeah.

It’s here to make you dance.

Yeah.

Make you dance or make you cry because your boyfriend just broke up with you or whatever.

Yeah.

Sad pop.

Sure.

Yeah.

Oh, God.

And so Ashley also has a little small business doing selling vintage clothes and furniture as well.

Yep.

Wrapping up the season.

I mean, as we head into this beautiful fall weather that we have, and it’s a good time, like this little bonus warm weather that we have where we can clean things out.

I’m just tripping over all my awesome stuff.

Wrapping up Black Whisker as well because I’ve got a container store at the yard because I quit my day job and I’m like, okay, I can do all of my dreams now just to do everything that I ever wanted.

Because I’m an adult, I have somewhat some skills that I learned in the corporate world or just go out there being an adult.

Like I can have my own little business and I can sell things and make music and write and be a great wife.

And I’m like, okay, apparently you can’t do it all.

So once again, dialing back even the Black Whisker Vintage is, but I’ll just call it seasonal anyways, right?

Yeah.

One more thing you’ve got in the back pocket.

Yeah, I’ll push pause on that as well.

I mean, winter time, I’m anticipating this is going to be a great writing season coming up.

Nice, nice.

Yeah.

Okay, I want to come back to that.

Don’t let me forget to ask you about winter writing.

Yes, yes.

Anything else you want to add as far as like, what makes you you, like what other things people might know you from, things like that.

If I missed anything.

Also, this is a three-part question, then what’s your favorite color that you’re really into?

If that’s a thing that changes with time and seasons, if you’re into a certain color right now, and what’s that song stuck in your head right now?

Yeah.

So all of those things, things about me that people might not know.

I love gardening.

I’ve got a huge green thumb.

I always have way too many plants in my house.

And an outside that I’m caring for, some that I’ve had for 15, 20 years, these plants.

And I love weed.

I love cannabis as a plant and as my medicine.

And I work at a dispensary locally now that is legal.

Not legal, sorry, it’s regulated.

Cannabis is just regulated, not legal.

And so I’m working at my friend’s dispensary like one day a week.

It helps me to still get out there and play shop, keep, you know, I like, I love the customer experience.

I love, hi, how are you today?

And how can I help you?

Being of service is a huge part of who I am.

So I don’t care what it is.

I’m working at the garden center or at the garden center.

I do love to be around plants and people and connect with folks.

The song that’s in my head right now, and it won’t stop.

It’s a song by a woman named Jesca Hoop.

And it’s called Memories Are Now.

That’s the name of the song.

And the reason why I gravitated towards this song, just about a week or so ago, was I couldn’t even remember her name, but there was this woman that really inspired me.

And when I close my eyes and I picture her and her voice, even though, unlike other singers and songwriters in the past, whom I was introduced to via MTV or YouTube, or I know what they look like, this woman I found, maybe I’m like a playlist.

So I never even delved into her website, who she is, what she’s about, where she’s from, any of it.

I just knew a couple of her tunes.

But the song that’s in my head right now, just like the couple of tunes that I heard on this playlist somewhere, and those tunes also stuck in my, they were just like a part of me until I turned them out, until I sang them enough times that I could shake them.

And that’s what happens to some of my favorite tunes.

They, there’s, it’s called an earworm, I guess, maybe.

But she sings as if she is like the mother of eagles.

Just making this up as I go along.

She sings it as if she is like the magic in, in the wind.

Which I can’t explain it, but it’s this very powerful, earthy way about her words, and the melodies, and the rhythm that feels very like, maybe, maybe like native.

And, and it’s dark and powerful.

So this song that’s in my head right now, Memories Are Now, I just stumbled upon it when I looked up her, like, Apple Music page or whatever.

And then when it tells you, this is the most popular song, and the most popular song I had never even stumbled upon, Memories Are Now.

And there’s this line in the song, and it says, I’m, I’m, I’m coming through, no matter what you say.

I’ve got work to do.

It’s…

I can’t stop singing in my head.

I’m coming through, no matter what you say.

I’ve got work to be doing.

If you’re not here to help, go find some other life to ruin.

Get moving, get moving.

Let me show you the door.

Ah!

I’m like, it’s so good.

It’s, it gives me energy just listening to it and repeating it over and over again.

It gives me power.

And it makes me feel good.

And I sing it at the top of my lungs, like I wrote it.

Because it speaks to me so loudly.

And so anytime I talk to anybody or I’m around my friend, I always say, listen to this song right now.

So it’s meant to be, I can’t believe that I hadn’t heard it till now.

You’re going to love it when you listen to it.

I’m totally going to listen to it as soon as we…

And her, you’re going to love her.

She’s great.

Yeah, I’m just looking her up real quick.

Yeah.

And she’s everything I thought she would be.

So I look her up today, for the first time today, I look at her Wikipedia, I read a little bit of her story.

I see she was Tom Waits’ kid’s babysitter.

Wow.

She was babysitting out on the West Coast for Tom Waits’ kid.

It was Shoot the Nanny.

And she’s received it through osmosis.

I don’t know, she’s so talented.

And I’ve loved what I’ve read when I’ve seen her.

Like she looks exactly how I would have dreamed her to look.

The mother of eagles.

I don’t know how I would have made that up.

Oh my God, so yeah.

Her voice, incredible.

Cool.

Thanks for sharing that so vividly and passionately.

Yeah.

I’m reminded of some of my favorite songs where once I start, just like you did, once you start, you have to finish that whole phrase because you can’t just be the one little part to get to it.

It’s also good too.

Trust me, I wanted to sing the whole song for you.

Yeah.

No, I totally get it.

But you’ll hear it.

It’s good.

Awesome.

All right.

I’m going to put that as a link in the show notes so everybody else wants to listen.

I like to try to do that.

That’s so nice.

Yeah.

Cool.

And favorite color?

I got to say red.

Orange, red, like fire.

All the colors in fire.

Is that like always has been forever?

Yeah.

I mean, I think about my little black whisker logo and I’m wearing a red beret and I just happen to look at my reflection right now and it’s red.

And I look around, I see a lot of oranges and burnt oranges.

It’s all of this same color, just different shades of it, everything.

Nice.

She’s just pulling things from the soft camera that are all different shades of orange, red, pink, burgundy.

Yeah.

So, yeah, red.

I do love red.

Easy, easy answer.

Nice.

Red lipstick.

Anytime, I’m like, wait, they’re red.

Yeah.

And filthy, but yeah, red.

Finally, my answer.

All right.

Nice.

I’ve been dabbling in red.

I’ve always been a cool tone girl myself most of my life, like blues, greens, purples.

Yeah.

But my husband loves red, and our house that we bought is red.

Oh, cool.

And yeah, it’s like a bright red house.

Sweet.

Wow.

You don’t get to see a lot of those, I feel like.

No, our house is the most colorful house on the block right now.

Yeah, that’s right.

Love it.

But yeah, red is an interesting color.

I find there are definitely reds that are not my red.

And yeah, yeah, absolutely.

You just have to find.

But I do like those groovy, vintage tones for sure.

Yeah, yeah.

Orangey.

Rusty.

Yep.

Yeah.

Not like not like SU orange, like that.

Right.

Almost like a brown orange.

Yeah.

Burnt sienna.

Yeah.

Cool.

Hey, would you tell us a little bit about your background musically as far as did you grow up?

Like what was it like growing up?

Were your parents musical?

Did you get formal training or was it kind of like you just kind of poked around and gathered instrumental?

Yeah.

So I’ve been asked this question enough times that I have, I can summarize this pretty well now.

I grew up in the country and our best friends lived right down the street from us, bike riding distance.

And I did grow up in a house full of tons of music.

My mother’s maiden name is Music, M-U-S-I-C-K.

She met my father when he was performing at a place called the Poor House West, the Poor House North.

And he was in a lot of bands, a few bands in the 60s and 70s, Prog Rocks, psychedelic rock.

And, you know, this was the 70s.

My parents loved music.

They were wicked hippies and fell in love.

They go to Manhattan.

My brother was born in New York City.

I was born in Syracuse.

My brother was born in New York City.

My father goes off to play off Broadway shows in Amsterdam, in Holland.

And growing up, we lived in a tiny house, not a lot of money.

I probably say poor, that we were dirt poor, but we had so much love and that we never…

I mean, we always want more as a kid.

Don’t get me wrong, you know.

I think I had one cabbage patch doll.

I wanted two.

I don’t know.

But music was always music, like MTV.

We listened to music.

My father always was playing music in records turntables growing up.

Even prior to MTV, of course, my dad would be playing classical music downstairs in the basement.

And I would listen to it over and over again, just like this Jesca Hoop song that I couldn’t get out of my head.

My father would be playing Bach, and I would have it memorized, and I couldn’t get it out of my head until he would teach it to me, so that I could play it and I could like exercise it out of my body.

That’s how it felt.

Until I could perform that Mozart piece or that Bach piece, it was just like stuck in me, and I needed to get it out.

So those were my early experiences of hearing something, and I just ended up hearing it and it playing over and over again in my head, and I just wanted to get it out so I would learn it.

And there was a show called Name That Tune when I was growing up, and I could name that tune in one note depending on the length of the one note, or the accent of it, or the combination of different string sounds with that one note, I knew what song it was.

I was always, always attracted to music, to soundtracks, to commercials, you name it.

I couldn’t get enough of, obsessed, I was obsessed with music.

I was in chorus, I was in orchestra, I played the upright bass, like the largest instrument you could possibly play, and I was wicked tiny.

I carried this thing on the bus.

So that caused a lot of awkwardness, just when you think you don’t have enough awkwardness in third grade, and an upright bass.

And I was like, it was definitely, it was way too big.

But then, I know I can’t, I stumbled across an old cassette tape where I’m telling a story into this old microphone.

It had a little cord, and it had this little stand, almost like those little signs outside of a coffee shop.

It’s, I forget what it’s called, like a-

Like a sandwich board?

A sandwich board, yep.

But it’s a little-

It was a little microphone like that with a sandwich board, kind of.

And then we could talk into it and a cord, and it would record it on the cassette tape.

And I found one the other day, I’m telling a made up story.

I was making up stories, fairy tales and stuff, and talking to the microphone.

So I loved that, because songwriting isn’t too far off from time from storytelling.

So I remember being like six years old and enjoying weaving a tale and using the microphone and recording it.

And I know I listened to that over the years.

And I wrote a lot over the years.

I became a huge fan of just the pop music in the 80s, like the Bangles and the Go-Go’s, Wham!, Cyndi Lauper, of course, Stevie Nicks.

You know, just had really loved music so much.

I loved crying to it with my first heartache.

I loved trying to teach myself the theme.

Let’s move on to Beverly Hills Cop.

Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do.

Where was it?

Beverly Hills Cop?

Something like that.

I don’t know.

The little cool theme songs, I would just run over to the keyboard and try to learn them.

And yeah, movie, movie soundtracks and stuff, Top Gun, Footloose, all the movies.

And I…

And really never thought that I would be a professional musician.

I never, I don’t even think that I ever really dreamed of it growing up, because music was just, I don’t know, was just, was always there.

I think this is the first time I’ve ever admitted this.

I never wanted to be a musician growing up.

You know, even like in college, I went to school for accounting.

I think in the high school, because we grew up poor, I’m like, oh yeah, that’s something to do.

I’m going to go play music because there’s just such a fortune to be made.

I never thought I would be famous.

I never, so fast forward through a failed attempt at taking accounting classes.

I was terrible at math.

So that didn’t work out.

OCC didn’t work out.

And I had a daughter very young, at 21 years old.

I had a daughter, my daughter Chloe.

And it was like this crossroads of when I was trying to win her father’s attention.

He loved playing acoustic guitar.

He loved Pearl Jam.

And by this time, I had no formal training with piano.

It’s just what my father would teach me in the basement.

Just some things.

I taught myself the rest.

And then I was in orchestra, played upright bass and the cello.

I taught myself guitar at 21 to get the attention of this boy who loved Pearl Jam.

I started teaching myself the guitar, and I learned cranberry song.

I am a mother.

I’m a 21 year old mother, single mother, wasn’t married, and we didn’t last two years.

But during that time, this crossroads of early motherhood and teaching myself the guitar, I started busking on the streets.

And I mean, I was terrible public speaker.

I would shake in front of a class at OCC or high school if I was called upon terrible public speaking.

I couldn’t do it.

And I was even ter-

I really was afraid to busk.

Like, I could play, but I just didn’t want anyone to talk to me.

I just kept playing because, just God forbid, anybody want to talk to me when I’m out there.

I was-

but I still wanted to play, and I wanted an audience, and I was practicing, and it just felt really, I guess, outside of my comfort zone and challenging.

But I gave birth to this beautiful baby girl, and that was the key for me in my life at that time, that I could do anything.

I could do anything.

I just gave birth to-

and it was an all-natural childbirth.

My first real experiences of having an outer body experience.

Yeah, another one comes along the way in a sound journey class.

It’s really cool.

But my first outer body experience happens when I’m in labor and it’s so painful that, you know, you have to kind of check out and go elsewhere to just survive those moments.

So with all that, I got up the guts to perform in front of people and to sing.

And I would sing and people would say, Oh, it’s really great.

And I love you.

You got a great voice.

And just like, you know, the one or the two or the three good friends I had that encouraged me to get out there and play my first open mic.

I mean, I loved it too.

So I’d like to say that even if I wasn’t that good, I didn’t, I just felt really good.

So I learned some of my favorite songs on guitar and I started to put myself out there and I started writing some really terrible sad songs.

But without those first terrible sad songs, there would have, who knows what would have happened.

But I’d like to thank all of my friends who encouraged me even though those were terrible songs.

Did any of those songs wind up on that first album?

No.

Okay, that’s curious.

No, they’re adorable.

They’re just for my ears only.

Okay, fair enough.

No one wants to hear that.

So the first solo album you came out with was in 2000?

Yeah, but as above so below was 2000, I think you’re right.

But before that, it was like 1997, I had a cassette tape.

And that was my demo, my cassette demo.

And I think it was called Sticks and Stones, maybe something like that.

I think it’s called Sticks and Stones.

There was a song called Dessert on there.

And there was a song called Don’t Remember the Rest.

I can’t think of them.

Man, I was hoping they would just like start flooding my memory, but I don’t remember.

So your daughter was a couple of years old when you released the first CD though, right?

Oh, yeah.

So she was six.

Okay.

Yeah.

And now it was then that I thought that I’m, I was just saying this to my husband last night because I am very, I’ve never been happier in my life than I am today.

And I can say that.

So there was a time that I thought I was going to make it big time in music.

They were, they, I had managers in New York City that were flying me to and from Syracuse to Manhattan.

Like I could drive, but they wanted to fly me and pick me up in a private car and take me sneaker shopping.

And it was like they were, you know, my people courting me.

And that will do something to your ego.

That will mess with you.

And, but those were different days.

Those were different times.

There really isn’t much, I think of a music industry today as it was.

It’s TikTok now, right?

It’s people don’t go to clubs to hear up and coming artists.

They go to TikTok, they go to the internet.

It’s just a different world.

Yeah.

And people release more like singles and EPs and not full-length albums as much.

Unless if they’re like a really like big label signed artist.

Yeah.

Beyonce just dropped an album tomorrow.

I mean, that happens.

I mean, I mean, not even just Beyonce, but like, I mean, there’s artists that I follow that still put out, like, I think it’s also depends on the genre when it comes to pop.

Yeah, there is more like, I think Taylor Swift’s the only one that puts out full albums anymore.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Okay.

Cool.

I love I love all of what you’re saying.

So that was a lot.

Yeah.

And here we are.

Can you share with us a little bit about, you know, it sounds like you’re very like aware, self aware, like you I imagine you have some like spiritual practices or like, you know, embodiment things or just things you do for yourself every day to kind of remain present and in touch.

And I’m wondering, like which of those things kind of like overlap and intersect with like songwriting for you?

Like, are there things that how does how does it come through?

Are there things you have to do?

Do you have to set up a certain kind of space for yourself or do you have like a regular practice for facilitating like when lyrics come through?

Do do lyrics come through first and then the tune or does the tune come through and then the lyrics or does it both?

Like, I’m curious about all of this.

So, this process, very often, it is the music that is first, that has to lay the ground for the melody to come out or the vibe, and I have learned over the years, as much as I will go over to my instrument, because it’s, these days, a good 50-50 from the piano and the guitar.

I don’t think, maybe the piano more these days, but I can’t force it.

I can say, I really, I’m feeling good, or I have an idea, and it just doesn’t, if it doesn’t come out easy, then I just don’t try.

I give up real fast.

But sometimes, sometimes the words will come first and maybe inspire me to pick up an instrument and see what will come out rhythmically, you know, for instance, I have notes in my phone that I love photography, I love taking videos, I love just capturing things in certain light.

And so I do love, I keep my phone around at all times, just for how many photos I love to take of different things and videos with the intention that, oh, maybe I’ll make a flyer with that photo, or maybe I will use that video to make a music video.

Kind of like picking up and capturing things along the way.

I do the same thing with my notes in my phone where I have an idea or I’m talking to somebody, and I say something that I’m like, oh, that would be great in a song, you know, make a little, I have notes in my phone like crazy.

Poetry, poetry everywhere.

My phone, I have just books galore and pens everywhere, where if I’m watching a movie, I like to keep my pen and my paper handy because the ideas will come at any time and I have to be ready.

If I don’t write it down, it will go away forever.

But the, so the latest song that I wrote, and I wrote in like five minutes, and I love it so much.

It happened out of nowhere.

I just went over to the piano, but you know, I had everything set up.

The house was clean.

There wasn’t anything getting in my way, no distractions.

And I walked over to the piano, and I knew it was in there.

I knew it was, I like felt it, and I didn’t know what was gonna come out before I put my hand on the piano.

But there had been a phrase that I wrote down a year ago now, over a year ago.

And I think the song, maybe the song came out like six months ago.

So six months prior I had written down, There Is No Middle.

And I wrote it down before I had quit my day job.

And I wrote it on a post-it note at work.

And I looked at it all the time.

And I knew then that I wanted to come out with a record.

And maybe the record would be called There Is No Middle.

Or maybe it would just be in a song.

I don’t know, but I knew it was gonna, it was gonna be something.

I just kept thinking that that was gonna be the record, because I’ve been saying that for myself, there is no middle.

I am either training for a triathlon, I’m running every single day, I’m working out every single day, I’m eating like my body is a temple.

I’m either doing all of those things, or I’m being a couch potato, eating Doritos for dinner.

Not exercising for months on end.

There is no middle with me.

It is either my nails are so long, I’m going to hurt somebody, or I’ve chewed them to the bone.

It is either, you know, and also politics, also America, also just this like screaming division that we have in this world right now.

There is no middle.

And so I walked over to the keyboard, and it was all of that.

And I just sang with the C, a C chord.

There is no middle.

There is no easy way out of this.

There is no quick fix, baby.

And it just started coming out.

Everything, and I sat, and I’m like, quick, write it down.

And then my hands just went to the next note, the next note, and it’s my favorite song right now that I’ve written, and I’m so happy that I went over to the keyboard, and I just started singing.

I mean, there are parts of it that make me sad and scared, and some of it’s about my family or people that I love, and some of it’s like calling people out, including myself, and so I’m trying to write from a more vulnerable standpoint these days.

And I guess when I’m doing that, it’s just flowing out.

It’s easy.

I think for a lot of years, I’ve tried to disguise my feelings in poetry or scenarios or metaphors, and now I’m just gonna start saying things, singing them just the way that it is.

My songwriting is changing over the years from Professional Victims to Ashley Cox’s solo.

My methods are different.

Yeah.

I was gonna remark on this at some point.

This is a perfect little spot.

I spent all day today listening to all of your music that I could.

Just like I cleaned two houses.

One penny for me.

Thank you.

I hit follow three different times.

Thank you.

Yeah.

And I also listened to some of the artists that you had given me in your intake form too.

And I’m listening and I’m like, okay, I can see where maybe there’s like, she likes this person because it’s a similar kind of sound, or maybe this person was an influence for her and her time, listening to music and then who do I want to emulate sort of a thing.

And you had already mentioned, like I was going to say, there’s times in Professional Victims where it sounds like the Cranberries.

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

There’s definitely times.

There’s other times where-

I can’t believe I still sound like Dolores O’Riordan.

And I love it.

I love that people pick up on that.

It’s not every song.

It’s not every song, but there’s certain ones that have the whole vibe.

And then-

That’s so cool.

There’s other ones where I was like, this kind of sounds like MGMT a little bit.

And then other things.

So, but listening to like your solo-

I listened to all the Professional Victims stuff all together while cleaning one house.

And then I went to the other house and I listened to all your solo stuff.

And then I didn’t even know about the Fondue band until I was like poking at your Instagram and I watched a couple of reels.

I’m like, oh, this is so great.

You literally covered like every decade.

Yes, wow.

Oh my God, I did it in 70s, 80s, 90s.

Yeah.

Because your solo stuff is very 90s singer-songwriter, Tori Amos, Ani De Franco vibes, right?

Yep.

Professional Victims has a little bit of the 90s grunge, but sounds more 80s.

I feel like the songs your husband sings are more the 90s rock sound.

Yes.

100%.

Yeah.

And then yours are more the Cindy Lauper kind of sounding, just like the way it sounds, the way whatever setting you have the keys on.

It sounds like some of your songs should have been on the Stranger Things soundtrack.

Yeah.

Oh my God.

I loved that soundtrack.

I loved it so much in that show.

Yes.

And then Fondue is the 70s.

I’m like, holy crap.

Now you need to do some like 2000s like Britney Spears and.

I know.

I think I was.

I was in my mom era.

Yeah.

In my mom era.

I’m raising Chloe.

I think the music was just terrible in the 2000s.

And she was listening to like Screamo.

I don’t even know what you called like Emo.

Oh God.

I don’t even know these bands.

But we were pumpkin carving the other night.

I mean, like, I guess one of the names is Attack Attack.

Do you know who this is?

Yeah.

No.

Maybe like, I feel like maybe like Blink 182.

And they’re just, it was just terrible.

It was a terrible era for music, I think, the year 2000.

So I don’t know.

I just kept listening to Tory and Alanis all the years I haven’t ever spent.

Well, it was like the transition phase of like the internet all of a sudden.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

People could get really big, really fast all of a sudden because you could download their music without having to go to the store.

I did love pop music.

I got into way more like modern pop music.

I loved Rihanna and Beyonce, of course.

And there was a lot of cool alternative rock bands.

And I loved the Foo Fighters.

I’ve always loved Tom Petty.

I’ve, I loved Arcade Fire.

We loved Arcade Fire.

I mean, if Sean and I probably could have just popped ourselves in the energy of any band at the time, it would have been Arcade Fire.

Yeah.

I had a phase where I was really into them for a little while.

I had two of their albums, one that was, oh, I don’t even remember.

Neon Bible.

Yes.

Neon Bible.

And then something like Funeral in the title.

Yeah.

Wasn’t that?

Was it this top funeral?

Yeah.

I think it was.

Yeah.

Because for a second, I was thinking that that song was on Neon Bible, but I think you’re right.

There was, yeah, back to back.

Yeah.

They were burned CDs someone gave to me and it was like, I can picture a handwritten, like a CD with black Sharpie.

And when I had a CD player in my car and I was…

So when I got the Motivational Speakers CD from you, that was when I had my Ford Focus, I had a CD player in it.

So cool.

I would do the same thing.

I would literally just have a CD in my CD player for days, weeks, months, and it would just be the soundtrack to my life for a while.

And that was that album.

Oh, that’s so cool.

I love the song, Tiny.

Harden the Storm.

Yes.

Can you tell me a little bit about like what that song’s about really, and what was going on in your life, and what’s the context there?

Yeah.

So again, back with Professional Victims, here I am with my husband.

And let’s just say we are, yeah, we got married in 2009.

So maybe he was my boyfriend at the time.

I don’t know.

I remember when it came out.

It was 05, I think.

Oh, no.

Yeah.

No, wait.

That was, no, it was 2012.

Okay.

So we were married.

All right.

But still, like, I don’t know, like three years, we’ve been married, we’ve probably been together for five years.

But still, I don’t care how long or how close you are to write songs that come from, I always write, I always wrote from a sad place or an angry place.

But I didn’t really know how to write a happy song at all.

I didn’t know how to write when I’m happy.

I was never inspired when I’m happy.

So, I mean, I’m five years in, ish, and I’m wicked happy.

We are in our newlywed phase still, we love each other.

And this is the first record where I am still like insecure though to write in front of him and like show him songs and will he like it?

And will it be able to go on the Professional Victims album?

Or is he going to be like, Oh, no, that’s too much like an Ashley Cox song and that needs to be on your solo record.

I always thought he was going to say the second I always thought he was going to be like, now that’s not like not rock enough or it’s not.

So I remember where I wrote it.

I remember I wrote it in our basement at the time.

And I remember thinking I wanted a song that people could like bop to.

I wanted to write a bop and the music absolutely came first.

I was playing the piano like a percussion instrument, the percussion instrument that it is.

And that was, I mean, these songs on that record, just the way Hindsight just came about.

It’s crazy to think that every time I felt a song coming, that it was born into the world.

It never, like…

I don’t think I had any ideas of songs that at that time, that didn’t actually make it onto the record.

So I guess they were all bangers.

Like you didn’t like stew on a song for months and months.

Right, right.

Like adding a lyric here.

It just kind of like comes through all at once.

Yes, and I had mine and Sean had his.

And he’ll say it, he’s like when, you know, he would go out for the night, maybe with his friends to see a band or something.

And I would come home and I’d have a new song.

And so a lot of them, Tiny Harmless Storm was a feeling.

Not a lot of these songs on that record were stories for me from like, okay, first this happened, then this happened, and then this happened.

It was more just like word poetry.

I mean, think about a Tiny Harmless Storm.

It’s like, okay.

It’s a hideaway, like a little.

It’s a cloud away.

It’s just like these ideas that it’s this big thing, and it’s nothing, and it’s gone, and it’s here.

And it’s more of a feeling than something that actually really happened.

It’s loud, it’s clear, there’s that part at the end.

It’s loud, it’s clear, it’s loud, it’s clear.

It’s just, it’s a feeling, it’s an eruption.

And again, I wanted them bopping and dancing, moving, feeling good.

So I guess a lot of like, you know, the mandala art that people make, if Tiny Harmless Storm could be just an image, it would be like a mandala that was drawn and then just like wiped away.

Let it go, let it die.

That whole, it’s definitely a let go song.

Yeah.

I love it.

I haven’t, I’ve always had like inklings about what, like I knew what it stirred in me and why I like it, but I can’t always like assume that what I think is like, I used to think that Madonna’s song was last night, I went for some bagels, because.

And what was it?

Last night I went to sell some bagels.

I thought it was for some bagels, because when I grew up on Long Island, we would go for some bagels, you know?

And so like, I can’t always trust that what I’m hearing in the lyrics is accurate.

And that’s what I loved about CDs was often, if an artist put the lyrics in, I would like read the lyrics along with it.

I don’t think yours had a lyric packet with it.

No, no, no, not that one.

I don’t think that one did.

So at this, I just want to pull Human Design in here just for people listening and geeking out to and that are like, what is it?

So Ashley has like this.

You have this.

Everyone has this kind of like little tagline.

If I asked you, what’s your design?

Or like in astrology, like what’s your top three?

Your sun, moon, and rising, right?

Like you can kind of like see those off.

In human design, it’s your 3.5 emotional manifesting generator.

And what I’ve really been keying in on is there’s all these different parts of your chart that light up, especially as you were just talking about that song.

The emotional part of your design is in reference to what your authority is and your authority has to do with like how to make decisions.

And it all relies on this emotional wave that you have.

And your particular one is the 1222 channel, which is literally like these like little blips.

It’s like a little spike and then you’re like neutral.

And then it’s a little dip and then you’re neutral.

And it kind of looks like a EKG monitor a little bit.

Wow.

And when you’re just describing like what this song is about, it is very much about like the experience of the emotional wave.

We’re like, it’s here, but then it’s not really anything.

Yeah.

And then maybe like I might drop down and then I come back up again and then I’m really high again and then I’m back down again.

And it’s just kind of, you literally just described like the nature of this emotional wave.

And I think for me as a listener, like I have an emotional wave, but it’s more like being on a raft in the middle of the ocean where it’s just kind of big and long and slow.

And sometimes there’s a hurricane and then it kind of settles down.

Yeah, well, mine’s like this long drawn up.

But I still I feel like for everyone, especially like in the culture we live in, we’re just now like starting to tap into doing some understanding and putting languaging to like what these emotion things are after living under a system that doesn’t honor them or give space for them or teach us how to like regulate ourselves or like you know, feel anything other than shame or guilt for having them and expressing them.

Right.

And so for me, it’s my emotionality has been like a struggle my whole life.

So I tend to gravitate to other and this is actually really cool, too, is like my top kind of artists that that I really, really love all have this channel in common and you have this one too.

And for me, just as someone who’s listening to your music, I have that parallel where like, yes, here’s this same energetic again that I tap into over and over again.

Jewel has the same channel defined.

Fiona Apple has the same channel defined.

Like all these like other like artists that really played a big part in helping me understand my own emotionality through their music.

And they have very meaningful lyrics and they’re very just like, yeah, their songs are very powerful and meaningful to me.

And I’ve always loved that about like the music is emulating pop of these different eras.

But I feel like unlike most pop, these lyrics are super, super meaningful.

Like a lot of pop music isn’t all that deep.

Right.

So I wouldn’t even want to put your music in the category of pop because it’s…

Yeah, that’s a huge struggle.

Like what category?

Ah, my God, I don’t know.

Don’t know, don’t care.

Yeah.

So cool, so cool.

I want to ask you about then the EP that came out after that, the Cosmos one.

Oh, Fed and the Cosmos.

That song, the first track, Human, I really love.

And I feel like professional, the, I’m sorry, the motivational speakers, I felt like had a lot of very, like obvious political overtone in it too, in a lot of the songs.

Yeah.

Right.

Like we were like at the end of the George Bush era.

Yeah.

Or no, no, 2012.

That was like that was that was we were between Obama and.

Yeah.

But why did I?

It was.

Yeah, it was.

Oh, yeah, I can’t say it was Bush and then.

It’s wild.

I feel like my brain just can’t take it anymore.

Yeah.

Anyway, it’s the same thing.

Different, different.

God.

And my husband, my husband and I have.

We both have have always been.

Yeah, I mean, I march anytime I can march and I get out there and raise awareness for make sure everybody’s registered to vote and you’re out there using your your power of power to vote.

I know I don’t really care.

And at the end of the day, who they’re going to vote for.

It’s a lie.

I do.

But I don’t tell them.

I don’t ever tell anybody who to vote for it.

Their own choice.

But my husband and I have always been both had been really, I guess, charged, you know, a little politically charged.

This, you know, music has always been an outlet for rebels, you know, a place where you can have your opinion heard, but it’s not, you know, it’s our place where we can just be ourselves.

And thankfully, we agree on most everything, even when it comes to, you know, the music that’s inspired him.

We’ve always loved the same kind of music, except he really doesn’t like Chappell Rowan right now, and that’s okay.

I’m just gonna let him have it.

Fine.

More for me.

Just starting to explore that, explore her, as I’ve been starting to hear her songs around just in passing.

But Fathom the Cosmos, the song Human, I really, really love.

I love the lyrics.

I love the tune.

I think it’s great.

Can you expand on that one a little bit?

Yep.

Easy.

So Fathom the Cosmos, and as Sean is now in my periphery, I think he could agree.

I remember when he went out to see Jeff Jones perform, I think, Pale Green Stars, maybe one night.

And I, you know, once again, just don’t get a lot of time to myself to play music.

I’m still, for some reason, a little insecure to sing my thoughts out loud onto the piano while I write, you know?

Because not everything just comes out in a song.

Sometimes you just gotta work it out.

And I was still just like, oh, I just want to whisper, sing into a microphone or something in the basement.

But he leaves and then I’m like, okay, I’m going to turn it up.

And I’m like, I’m going to do a shot of whiskey.

I’m going to smoke some weed.

And I’m going to go write a song.

I swear to God, I think I wrote three songs that night.

I think I wrote Pirate Flag, Strangest Thing and Human in one night.

And it was fucking crazy.

It was like I had stored all of these ideas in, in my body and soul and mind.

And I went down there and for three hours, wrote three songs.

Human may have been the first one.

And that was about a good friend of mine who seemed to always just be going through it.

You know, she’s the smartest, most beautiful, powerful creature.

And then just for some reason, like always getting in her own way.

It was just like almost typical damsel in distress, you know, running towards the fire or stop.

You’re going to get burned.

Don’t do that.

Haven’t we learned yet?

So it was kind of an anthem written to her to say, I mean, I guess it’s like, fuck it.

This is how you’re going to be.

And, you know, even an anthem to myself, you know, fuck it, I’m a human.

You know, and all the heartache and all the torment, you know, what’s it all for?

Turn it all around and say, I’m a human.

I mean, because we can’t change people.

And as much as I love a good, you know, verse chorus verse bridge chorus type song, sometimes like human, I mean, that’s like a two minute, it’s probably just a little over two minutes long, two minutes, 30 seconds.

I just repeat it.

It’s, you know, right, you know, wrong, you know, the difference in your favorite song.

So why the heartache?

Why the torment?

Take yourself around and say, fuck it, I’m a human.

Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh.

And, and then it repeats again.

And it really was for me to sing and feel it and go through it.

I love singing that song.

That was my favorite song that I’d written for years as my favorite.

It’s still up there because it feels like a mantra to the world.

Now, you know, it feels so much bigger than just my buddy going through a hard time.

And then I can take all of my frustration or sad feels and get it out when I perform that live.

So, you know, with the song, what it was about and then what it ends up being once I’m performing it or I’ve sang it a bunch of times.

I mean, it still has its origin story, but yeah.

In the newer album.

High and Mighty.

Yeah, High and Mighty came out last year.

Yeah, almost a year ago, November 11th.

Is there, do you feel like there’s a little bit of, of a different, I mean, it’s been like eight, it was eight years between albums.

But what do you feel maybe is different or similar to like, where the, you know, where you guys have taken the music from that Fathom the Cosmos to this one.

I feel like there, there is a little bit of a shift that I can hear in, lyrically and musically, but I want to hear it from you.

Yeah, we started writing together for the first time.

So there we were in the height of the pandemic in 2020.

And that’s where a lot of those songs, we started writing those songs together finally.

So we started writing together and jamming together.

My husband started smoking weed with me.

And he started chilling out, we started jamming.

And I think we both have taken music so seriously over the years.

And even though we say, oh, we never thought we’d get famous or play arenas, we still wanted to make arena rock.

We still wanted to make great songs that could be played in an arena.

We always had, I guess, big dreams for the songs.

We knew that the songs were, we wanted to make them big.

And anyway, so when we finally got together in the same room and could have fun with it, which is like great, there’s a pandemic.

So we’re, I guess, we’re stuck in these rooms together and we’re going to make music and have fun with it and make the best of it.

And we did just that.

I would come up with a little idea or he would, and then we would work off of it together.

We would work on lyrics together and ideas.

And, but still it was over the course of many years.

Let Go that was on that record.

That was probably written six years, seven years before the album number came out.

So maybe right after Fathom the Cosmos, we just never gotten, we never got around to getting serious about the record.

We changed drummers a couple of times and bandmate.

You know, being in a band with Sean and I probably isn’t a cakewalk, a married couple, but you know, because not everybody can maybe understand the love.

It looks different on different days.

And some days it looks argumentative.

I mean, one of my favorite bands of all time, U2, they would go to war in the studio because, you know, in The Beatles, opinions in the studio, when you’re talking about your art and music and a melody and the way something, you know, the vision that you have, these are strong opinions that don’t get swayed easily.

It’s so, I know that being in a band with us probably isn’t the easiest thing, but so we change a lot of band members and we would record with some people.

I mean, even on the album, we’ve got Jesse Morrison on there as Drums and Rob, Zacharia, two drummers.

We have two different bass players on the album.

I mean, at the core of it, it’s Sean and I.

Sean and I, you know, Professional Victims and whatever happens after that, we thought about maybe changing the name and starting fresh and doing something different for the next year and the next years to come.

We don’t know what’s going to happen.

It was definitely our first perfect ending.

We wrote that song together.

We wrote, both of us wrote a lot of the music and the lyrics as well.

I love that song.

Definitely, you know, the pandemic, what you’re going to do when it all comes down?

What you’re going to do when the money runs out?

What you’re going to do when it’s gone?

I mean, we both have agreed, or at least said that it’s our favorite body of work, the last album that we did.

Who released his full album?

Taylor Swift and Professional Victims.

It’s definitely like, I think it’s more than 10 tracks, right?

I think it is too.

Maybe it is just 10.

Oh, it’s exactly 10.

Yeah, yeah, five in the front, five in the back.

Yeah, I feel like some people will release eight tracks and call that a full album.

And I’m like, hmm, close.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, no, we knew it would be a full album.

We had enough material.

We have material that didn’t make it on the album.

And we handpicked these.

They all felt like they needed to be together.

I love listening to the album front to back.

The first time I listened to it, I like screamed dance because I couldn’t believe that we did it.

And then I put out an album that I really enjoyed listening to from beginning to the end.

Then it took me on a ride energetically and emotionally.

And then I liked how it was Sean’s idea to call…

Well, I think I was joking and I was talking about opening up a weed store myself.

I’m like, oh, maybe I’ll just open up a weed store.

Weed’s legal.

And it’s so hard.

It’s regulated.

I couldn’t…

It’s regulated.

Yeah.

And that he’s like, yeah, you could open up, open them one up and call it High and Mighty.

I’m like, oh, that’s a great idea.

So I wrote that down.

I write down High and Mighty.

And I think I also write down her highness, you know, her highness.

And I write down a couple of other things.

But then at some point, when we’re just, you know, messing around, we’re trying to think of the title.

And I think you come across that on the sheet of paper, I’m like, oh my God, we have to call it High and Mighty.

I’m like, we just became regulated in New York.

And it was just like the timing.

It was perfect.

And we wrote so many of these songs.

We were wicked high.

So it was just going to be perfect.

Elevated.

Yep.

So demure.

Yeah.

Oh, we had such a great time.

We really did.

We had so much fun.

Awesome.

I don’t know which one, which song I like the best yet on this album, because it feels even newer to me, even though I listen to both that and Fathom the Cosmos.

I think because Fathom the Cosmos is only five tracks.

I listened to it a couple of times.

Yeah.

I listened to High and Mighty twice, I think.

I think one that I was particularly just really paying attention to, it got me paying attention to the lyrics, was the song Feels Like the End.

Oh, yeah.

And I think that was the one where I was like, oh, I’m going to, I think, I feel like you’re just, yeah, it’s just, yeah, the last couple of years are kind of informing some of these songs.

And the song Aftermath also kind of really hit me as like, I was wondering, like, Oh, we’re going through it.

Yeah, this is.

Yeah.

Is she talking about, is she talking about the politics?

Is she talking about the COVID?

Is she talking about the wars?

Is she talking about, like, all the, it’s just all of it, right?

It is all of it.

It is literally all of it.

And it really is.

Yeah.

Didn’t leave it out.

It’s in there, the emotion and the confusion and the angst.

And then what was really cool on the album is that there are at least two songs that our daughter helps us lyrically, tightrope.

When Sean picks up his guitar, and he comes up with this riff.

And he’s got a certain tone on his guitar, and he’s got it turned up, and I can feel it, and it’s like reverberating and the room.

Lights are off, we’ve got the cool lights going.

Only something a little wing, feeling round on.

And he’s like, come on.

He’s like, I’m like, oh yeah, I’m like, I hear a melody.

Hands me this notebook.

He’s like, kick something.

And you know, right?

With the music is laid out there now, I’m just going to pick out a book, and I’m just going to like land on a page, and I’m going to use, I’m just going to sing the song now.

That’s what’s going to happen because we’re just messing around.

No pressure.

We’re having a good time.

And it’s my daughter’s notebook, and he hands it to me, and he’s like, just, you know, and I’m looking at it, and he’s like, no, you know, I was like, pick something.

And when I opened it up, and what I see is like the sweetest little, like something from, I don’t know, it was an English or English journal, something she had to write that day.

But it was, I’ll sell you my emotions.

It’ll cost a tear, a dime.

I’m like, what, but I’ll sell you mine.

It just came out and it was perfect.

Like the rhythm of it.

And I loved how, I know what she meant to say, but that it is just her own way.

And so that it doesn’t really make sense, but I love that it doesn’t make sense.

It’ll cost a tear, a dime.

Like I’ll sell you my emotions.

So she’s putting a price on it, but a tear, a dime.

I mean, I couldn’t make sense of it, but I also know exactly what it means.

And so as much as I thought about changing it, I loved it just the way it was.

It reminded me of like a kid.

It’s like childlike emotions that they don’t have to be perfect, but I know what it meant.

And then I just added on to it.

You’ll be a millionaire in a heartbeat.

I loved the rhythm of it.

And it just, I’ll sell you my emotions.

It’ll cost a tear, a dime.

You’ll be a millionaire in a heartbeat.

Baby, please don’t waste my time, my time.

And so that’s all we had.

And she, I came over later on that day.

I don’t think she was living with us at the time.

But I’m like, Chloe, I gotta show you something.

Kind of wrote this really cool song.

Sean, play it, let’s play it, let’s play it for her.

And we played it.

And I’m like, and I showed her the notebook.

I go, this is how it went down.

He handed me your notebook.

I’m like, so you’re like, co-part songwriter and this co-writer.

And I go, so we’re gonna need a chorus.

He plays it.

I pass her a notebook and a pen.

And I’m like, what would you write?

And so again, he goes into the, what’s gonna be the chorus.

There’s no words over it.

And she just writes down, lock the tightrope, barefoot where glass broke.

I’m like, like it’s a beautiful, it’s so perfect.

How did you just do that?

And how do you even do that?

That was, but even as I say that, like how do you even do that?

I know that I’ve done it, but you can’t, it’s really hard to ask for it on demand.

That rarely happens.

I’ve done it once in the studio when the band agreed and the producer agreed that it needed a bridge.

And I walked away and wrote one of my favorite bridges to a song that I’ve ever written.

So it can happen, it’s possible, but it’s rare.

It’s really, really, really rare.

And for her, at like her skill level of like songwriting, she hadn’t written a lot of songs, some, and she’s written a lot of poetry and she’s written a lot.

I have tons and tons of her notebooks that I have found over the years that I’m like, Chloe, I think I found your first songbook.

You’re going to need to keep those and make sure you don’t try to plagiarize anymore.

Yeah, so some of the songs happened that way.

Where she helps us with a couple of lines and just kept the songs moving and flowing.

We still help each other.

My daughter and I are writing together as we speak and so we’re really focused on taking music less seriously.

Yeah, and I think that that’s like, I mean, that’s what it is when you finally manifest the thing you’ve been wanting is when you just don’t care anymore, right?

It’s the non-attachment piece.

Yeah, yeah.

I also equate that to like the feeling of grace, like when you have that moment where you’re in that surrender.

Yeah.

And so for some, sometimes it comes where like there’s been this tension building and building and building.

We’re trying to force life to happen a certain way, and it’s just not working.

We’re getting met with all this resistance.

We finally throw our hands up and we say, OK, I’m done.

I’m not doing anything anymore.

And you wake up the next morning and it’s all it’s all all the answers have been brought to you.

Right.

It’s like that.

But like you don’t have to go through all that super hard stuff to be in that place of surrender.

It’s really you can just pass all the hard stuff if you just go straight to the play.

Right.

Yeah.

Well, you know, this my daughter has taught me a lot even over the past few years here with, you know, words like boundaries.

That’s a new word for me.

And she’s, you know, she’s done the work.

I’m, I think I’m just starting to do the work.

I had that day job for the past 16 years.

I’ve been a year free from it now, but there were so many years where I was just trying to balance everything and be successful and cram it all and do as much as I could within the day.

But there wasn’t a lot of self care time and creative time.

You would always hear me say the words, I have no time, I have no time, I have no time.

So no longer the case.

Yeah, that’s nice.

I definitely catch myself saying that about certain things.

A lot of the time, I’m a lot better than I used to be.

Yeah.

I want to just share your chart so you can see.

Okay.

Yeah.

It here.

And I want to talk a little bit about what I’m seeing.

Let’s see.

Something that is really, it’s so wild.

I love human design so much.

So if you’re familiar with like the chakras at all.

Oh, yeah.

And or a little bit of astrology.

This has a couple of different modalities kind of synthesized into the chart.

So it’s based on your birth time.

So it has the astrological component.

If you can.

So great.

I can’t even believe what the heck.

If you know what the glyphs mean, like this is the sun, is this one up top and then the earth and then the north node, south node, moon, mercury, Venus, all the way down the line.

So this is telling you like what positions all the planets were in.

And then you look at the shapes and we call this the body graph part of the chart is all the shapes where they correlate to the chakras and then you have the pathways, all the channels in this are correlate to the pathways in the Kabbalah tree of life.

And then all the numbers that are all the planetary positions, like your son is 64, 64.3, but 64, each of these numbers correlates to a hexagram in the Chinese I Ching.

So that’s the one that most people maybe don’t really know a whole lot about, but there’s basically the numbers represent a different archetype that we find in the I Ching.

And so what we’re looking at is we’re kind of looking at energy flow.

And so all the colored in spots, so you have pretty much every center colored in, or in Human Design, we call it defined.

You have eight out of nine of your centers defined, which is not the most common, which is pretty cool.

That was like the first thing I was like, oh my gosh, I thought you had all nine of them, but you still have the, what’s called the Will Center is undefined.

And so when people have this many centers defined, usually they have a split in the definition.

So I’m just gonna kind of go walk you through real quick so you can see what I’m saying.

So the Crown and the Ajna, the top two triangles, they’re connected together by this channel, the 6447.

Oh, I see, okay.

Okay, so that’s one group.

Then the throat center is connected through the 1222, that little emotional blip up and down we were talking about.

Yeah.

The tiny harmless storms.

Tiny harmless storms lives in this little channel right here that connects the throat to the emotional solar plexus center.

That’s a little group, okay?

And then we have all the rest of your centers that are colored in, the identity, which is like the heart center, the sacral, the root, and then on the left, it’s the spleenic center.

The spleen and the solar plexus are both part of the solar plexus chakra in like, in the chakra system, but in Human Design, they’re two different centers because there’s just a lot of energy going on.

So all of those, those four are all connected together, but there are these three separate groups and they’re not connected together.

Like, so you have what we call Triple Split definition, where you have three different splits in the energy.

And what’s really cool about this, and this is just in all the conversations and interviews and research I’m doing just on my own, just super curiosity around correlations in preferences, like musical preferences and situational preferences.

So I ask everybody, you answered this question, which do you prefer, taking in music, you know, alone at your house, listening to like record, or going to like a local venue, or going to like a big show with thousands of other fans.

And you chose the thousands of other fans when like you like want the like the big, big, big show.

And in general, when I look at people who have splits, especially Triple Splits, Triple Splits always go for the big show.

They want, they want the big show, because what’s happening is when you come into contact with other people, there’s always a chance that somebody, anybody could be me, could be your husband, could be a person at the grocery store.

Somebody is going to help bridge at least one of those splits with their energy.

So when you, when you come in contact with their aura, all of a sudden, maybe the Ajna and the throat are connected, and they’re communicating with your solar plexus, and all of a sudden, all these complex ideas and complex emotions, all of a sudden, like, oh, want to come out, want to come out, want to come out.

Or, you know, in the other direction, they might connect more with your lower centers, and you might all of a sudden have all the energy to actually birth the thing into the world.

You know, like, there’s different ways that that can happen.

And so when you’re in a crowd of thousands of people, you’re getting, like, a lot of different peoples.

Oh, yeah.

That’s helping kind of connect that flow, create that flow.

I’m curious, like, after you’ve been, what’s the last big show you’ve been to?

And after you’ve been to one of those, do you find that you get all of a sudden, like, a huge surge in creativity, whether it’s in songwriting or elsewhere?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

I, oh, my God, when was, oh, The Flaming Lips, I think was the last big, big.

Was that a Beacon’s Skiff?

Yeah.

And yeah, so fun.

One of, I just have to share this story.

I’ve never even, I don’t know that I’ve shared it publicly before.

I went to the Radiohead, Madison Square Garden two nights in a row show.

And this is many, many years ago.

But I used to go to big concerts and bring a little pad of paper and a pen, and I would get as close as I could.

And it would always happen, stream of consciousness.

I would always start writing.

It would be in the dark.

It would be tons of scribble messes because I’m just trying to write.

I’m writing and I’m trying to watch and write at the same time.

Just, it would always just flow out.

So I’m at Radiohead and I call my friend, Sean Sullivan.

He’s just my friend at the time.

Once in a while, he would play guitar for my band, for me.

I was solo at the time.

I called him.

I was like, I want to be in a band with you.

I’ve got so many ideas.

I’ve got so many songs.

So will you play guitar with me?

He’s like, yeah, sure.

He tells me years later that he was with his girlfriend at the time, and she’s like, why is Ashley Cox calling you in the middle of the night, talking about being in a band that was weird.

And he’s like, don’t worry.

I’ll never hear from her again.

And he’s right.

He hasn’t heard from me for years.

A year or whatever goes by.

I run into him again.

I’m like, oh yeah, remember when I called you, like, yeah, I’m serious.

I’m like, uh, run over.

I want you to, I want to do this song live.

And it was a Radiohead song, and I gave him a Radiohead DVD.

I give him this DVD of all their music videos.

And he leaves, and I don’t see that DVD again until he’s moving in with me.

We’re married, and he’s got a box, and he’s like, oh, here’s your Radiohead DVD.

It gets better.

I’m like, oh shit.

I’m already, yeah, wow.

And he’s like, yeah, remember you called me at the Radiohead concert, and my girlfriend at the time got in, you know, and so I hear the story, and I’m like, ha ha ha ha.

Well, gas forward another like eight years, and I come across my little notebook, come across my little notebook, and I’m reading this poetry is like four pages of just dream of consciousness.

I’m like, this is so cool.

Like I love this.

What was it?

This is great.

I like love the material that I wrote.

And I sometimes I write the dates down of when I wrote something, and I look at the date, and I was like, because that’s a significant date.

And I’m like, was this at the Radiohead concert?

And I go over to the Internet and I ask the Internet, Radiohead, Madison Square Garden, these dates.

Because the stream of consciousness, that stuff that I wrote down, it was pretty cool if the Radiohead, same Radiohead concert that I called my husband at.

The date is our fucking wedding date.

Oh, yes.

Ooh, ooh, I love that.

Yeah, yeah.

And I freaked, I’m like, Sean, Sean, can you look at me?

Like, this is crazy.

I’m like, I called you, and I wrote all this down, and like the DVD that we shared, and like, come on, they gave me the DVD, like from Ghana.

Like, fuck, do you think this is weird?

So, yeah.

He’s like, yeah, so.

Okay, babe, do you want ice cream tonight?

When you talk about that moment, when you’re in that sea of people and that concert, that it just, just like, I am out of my mind feeling the greatest feelings that I think I will ever feel in my life at a radiohead concert.

I mean, and then of course, all of the other concerts, I do love a good live show, getting real close to the stage and feeling it and the vibrations and I feel like it changes me every time.

Yeah.

Oh, that’s beautifully, beautifully said and described.

I love that.

In studying the system and doing readings for people, like I don’t, I’m not a triple split.

I’m a single definition where all my centers are all connected.

They all communicate the same way all the time.

Doesn’t matter who I’m around.

And, I mean, I do get stuff from people in different ways, but this triple split thing is something that it’s just in the people I talk to about it and people that I talk to who have it and I do readings for it.

It is this, it can also be, I mean, I wonder if this has been your experience to maybe even when you were younger was like, for some people, it can be almost too much.

Like it’s overwhelming.

It can almost short circuit you.

Oh, of course.

Like while you’re at the show, like do you just like immerse yourself and then you leave?

Or do you have to like take breaks periodically, like leave the front and then go like, you know, like, I mean, we do this anyways at shows, but like, I’m more of like, I’m more of a hang in the back and have a really cool conversation with someone kind of a person talking that everybody yells at, at a show, but…

Yeah, it definitely depends on the show.

And it depends on how I’m feeling in the moment, because even as you, before you told me my answer, it could have been different.

My answer sometimes, you know, especially like locally, because we do get over, I don’t want anybody talking to me.

I get, like, when I go to the show, I just, I feel like the people in the front are just as serious as I am.

And so we’re just, yeah, we’re just there to just do this.

And they’re going to love it just as much as I do.

So when I just am just, I’m with my people, you know, in the front.

And I used to love crowd surfing.

I would just love getting, yeah, getting right into it.

But I also can get very overwhelmed with the crowd.

It can be too much.

And like I said, especially like globally, I don’t always like running into people that I know.

It’s just too much, it’s too overwhelming, too overstimulating.

And I just want to be left alone too.

So this would be alone in the crowd.

Yeah, alone in the crowd.

Yeah, yeah.

Cool.

I love that.

So like that’s harder for me without having the language and the map of this system to like see the differences and like my energy versus like other people’s energy.

Yeah.

Like it’s harder for me to understand that sometimes.

Like there are times where like if I’m super, super huge fan and like know every word to every song, you know, and all that sort of stuff, then like I might be down there at the front, but really only for a little bit.

I really am more of like like bop around, run into people, wind up spending half an hour in the ladies bathroom, having some deep conversation about the cosmos, right?

Or, you know, something like that.

And I dance a little bit, but I really am just like a hangbacker kind of a person.

So sometimes it’s like it’s hard for me to relate or like the people that are the hardcore, diehard people, like yelling at people like me to shut up.

And I’m like, but I’m not.

That’s why I came to the back.

Like, you know?

So it’s cool to see like what like, yeah, like try to put myself in in the shoes of the person energetically, like what you’re feeling when you’re just surrounded by all these people who are all there, focusing their attention on, you know, the band or the artist, and you’re all just like beaming that same, just like love for the experience at the same time, just amplifying all of that.

That’s it’s really cool to.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it was definitely it was a flaming.

I think it was a flaming.

Yeah, it was the last big one I went to.

I am a flaming lips fan.

I listened to them in high school when the Yoshimi album came out.

Yeah.

And I had listened to them a little bit before that, too.

But that was like the that album came out when I was like actively listening to like that music.

And it was good and I loved it.

And then I saw them live and it wasn’t.

As it wasn’t, I don’t know, it just wasn’t as potent.

I think the crowd wasn’t the right crowd.

It was a couple of years ago at Saranac Brewery and the Lenin Claypool Experiment played after them or before them.

I think they played before them.

And it felt like more of the crowd was there to see the Lenin Claypool Experiment and then Flaming Lips.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah, because I thought they would open up for them.

Yeah.

Well, it was like, it was just, I don’t know, it was just different.

It wasn’t, I had like memories and like feelings attached to certain songs and things and then kind of like felt a little bit like, yeah, with this experience, because a lot of the crowd like actually left after the Letting Slave Bull experiment was done.

And yeah, you need to have like, you got to have like tons of those fans all there to have that experience.

But yeah, but I would, I would give them another chance if it was the right, I bet the, I know the Beacon Skip Show was like really good.

Everybody was that.

Yeah, that was about it afterwards.

Yeah.

And I, I, I don’t, you know, I saw them once at the Landmark Theater.

And a song that they played that night.

And I did take some psychedelics that night, I took some mushrooms.

And the mushrooms kicked in right around the time when they started playing Under Pressure by David Bowie and Queen.

And in that moment, when they started, when the flamingo started playing Under Pressure by David Bowie and Queen, And they started playing it in their own way.

Russia pushing down on me.

In that moment, my favorite song of all time was Born.

That was it.

Anybody ever asked me, even as of today, what is my favorite song of all time?

It’s Under Pressure by David Bowie and Queen.

Because I don’t even remember.

I knew the song.

It was familiar to me then, which is why I liked it so much.

I’m at this concert.

I like kind of know the flaming lips.

You probably have like, yeah, one or two songs that I like or that I’ve heard.

But they play this song from my way back years in the 80s, and tapped into that place that I really loved.

And I just forgot about that song.

I didn’t know how much I loved it.

So, they gave me that.

They gave me my favorite song of all time.

Nice.

I love that.

That you’re an excellent storyteller and so engaging, and you’re the perfect person to ask some of these questions too, because you just like, I could ask you one thing, and you just like take it and tell me the whole story, which is what I want.

I’m here for the stories.

People listening are here for the stories, and I love it.

I love it all.

Thank you so much.

It’s been really, really cool to listen to you talk, because what I showed you of your chart too, in general, it’s a pretty freaking rare configuration to have, and I’ve spoken to a lot of people that have different configurations and things.

But when you have the head, the head and Ajna are fully defined.

These tend to be songwriters who are just not just prolific and good at writing songs.

People can turn out songs all day long, and maybe they’re not that great or they don’t really mean a whole much, but they’re just turning them out.

But you said it a couple of times, like the phrase stream of consciousness.

Like my husband has these centers defined too.

And when I ask him like, what is it like?

Because like I have these open.

So for me, it’s like things drop in at random times.

But I only get them like from other people.

Like I can almost hear his thoughts sometimes.

It’s freaky.

And when I’ve asked him like, and anybody else I come across with this, I ask him like, what is it like?

And a lot of people are just like, it’s just like kind of this constant stream.

And you had said earlier that like, if you don’t write it down, you’ll lose it because it just goes downstream, right?

Like, because then the next thought comes in or the next phrase or the next idea and the next thing.

And it’s just this kind of constant thing.

I always reference this, the episode six in the podcast.

I talked to a friend of mine who’s a big fan of Fallout Boy and the lead guy from Fallout Boy.

He also has this defined and he talks about how like, he just literally just writes stream of consciousness, fills notebooks, and then the guy who writes the music, who plays guitar in the band, he just goes through and he just picks stuff out.

So that’s so cool.

Yeah, kind of describing like, oh yeah, sort of processes going on too.

And like you use your phone and I’m sure you’ve probably got lots of notebooks filled and journals and things like that.

Yeah, we do that.

We play puzzle pieces.

Sean, we will still do that.

He’ll say, I’ve got this idea I’m working on, and we’re writing material now that, again, it’s less metaphorically speaking and these are going to be just the real life fucking stories of stuff.

So we’re evolving as songwriters.

I don’t care how long it takes.

We’re going to get it out.

At least I’m going to try to get it all out.

Would you ever try to teach songwriting, or at least the way that you songwrite?

Yeah, I thought about that.

And I love hanging out with people or friends and like, bring your notebook, bring some ideas.

I’ll show you that it can be done.

I don’t think that, I’m sure maybe some of it’s talent when it comes to music and singing something, but we’re not trying to win a contest here.

You’re trying to write something that means something to you and maybe put it to music and sing along and make a song.

I can do that.

I can help people write their songs.

I know I can.

I’ve done it with my, I’m doing it with my daughter right now.

I helped some friends just for fun.

But yeah, that would be, that would, I like that.

Yeah.

Well, it’s cool because when you have these defined, it’s like, well, let me, let me take a step back.

Having them undefined, a, like a positive like mantra or affirmation, we say is, I have access to limitless sources of inspiration.

Like it comes in, it comes in, in divine timing, it can come in from the transits, it can come in from being in the grocery store, it could come in from any number of places or people.

But when you have it defined, you are the inspiration.

You are the source of inspiration because you have this, like you’re getting this direct channel from the source, and like it wants to beam through your vessel.

So I love like, I could see like the way that you would teach like, say a class, like a songwriting class with several people would be totally different than, like, I feel like someone who has these centers open that maybe teaches songwriting classes, and this is just a theory, I’m just jabbing it in the dark here, would be like they might have something like more structured to it because to keep, you know, to have that more, I don’t know, I don’t know, maybe not though, because lots of folks I talk to with the open head and Ajna too, like they’re just like, it just pops in when it pops in other people, like, like, yeah, Novak, I talked to her about it and she’s, she’s open up there and she says that she’ll hear something.

I think it, the words are the different colors I’ll eventually use in a painting someday.

And that music is like the blank canvas, and it’s just waiting for the day where the wind is at the right spot, and the light is at the right spot, and then the painting all comes together, the AKA the song.

But I’ve noticed lately that if I don’t have my space ready, you know, moving had really took a toll for me on like my creative time, because my life just like, you know, up.

I just picked it all up and packed it up and moved.

And so still trying to get settled like two years later has taken a toll on some of my creative visions.

So I’m still looking forward to getting settled here more and writing more.

Well, it sounds like you’ve got lots of acreage to like maybe get your little woodshed, get a little woodshed, run some electric out to the back.

I’ll send you now in an email what friends and friends and I are talking about, like getting all the different reclaimed old windows I’ve got.

It’s in the work.

Cool.

Give me my little space, my little space to write.

Yeah, your she shed.

Yeah, I want that.

Awesome.

Well, thank you so much for all your shares and just everything.

Your whole energy is just so great to connect with.

Thank you.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah.

And if folks want to connect with you over the ethers in the interwebs, you’ve got a couple of different handles, but I think your main ones are probably what?

Ashley Cox music and Professional Victims.

Yeah.

Those are the two spaces I exist on the interwebs.

Yeah.

Awesome.

And then if someone wanted to, like, wait, if someone’s still, if there are people out there, I know there’s people out there who still listen to CDs because I’ve given that some of mine to them.

Yeah.

How can someone get a hold of a physical CD from you?

What’s the best?

My shows.

Yeah.

My shows or just even DMing, just send me a message.

If they want a CD, I’ll send them a CD.

They can then mow me whatever they feel it’s worth.

Cool.

Otherwise, they’re all up on Spotify.

Yeah.

People are streaming.

Yeah.

That’s what I was doing today.

So thank you so much.

And we’ll see everybody on the next one.

Thanks, Anna.

Thanks, everybody, for tuning in.

Hey, you made it to the end of the episode.

What did you think?

Are you fascinated by this all?

Do you have loads of questions now?

Are you going to go look up some charts of all your favorite musicians?

Well, come on over to my Patreon page at the link in the show notes and let me know all about it.

I would also really love it if you could leave a rating and review and share the podcast with a friend who you think might enjoy it.

Until next time, keep on rocking, my friends.

Episode 24 – Ashley Cox on Songwriting and the Stories Behind the Songs

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Episode 24 – Ashley Cox on Songwriting and the Stories Behind the Songs

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